Episode 4: Anthony Boyd | From finance to CEO: Why curiosity beats a career plan

In this episode of Your Path to CEO, Greg O’Shea speaks with Anthony Boyd, CEO of Sydney Markets, about what it really takes to step into the CEO seat.

Anthony breaks down the shift from finance leadership to enterprise leadership, and why the biggest leap in his career wasn’t becoming CEO but moving out of his functional comfort zone into general management.

Key themes from the conversation include:

•  Why curiosity across the whole business accelerates leadership growth far more than staying in your lane 
•  The reality of imposter syndrome when stepping into unfamiliar roles and how to navigate it 
•  Why great leaders stop trying to be the expert and start enabling experts around them 
•  The role of culture as “everyday behaviour,” not posters or values statements 
•  Why succession planning starts the moment you step into a role - not when you leave it 
•  The hidden trade-offs of senior leadership, from relocation to personal sacrifice 

He closes with simple but powerful advice for future CEOs: back yourself, focus on attitude and effort, and stay open to where the next opportunity might come from.

Transcript

0:07

So, you want to be a CEO, but what is the pathway? This podcast from AXR's Executive Search Specialists will show you how to make the step. You'll hear Australia's leading CEOs talk candidly about their journey, lessons they've learnt, and advice they wish they'd had. We'll also deep dive into the role of a CEO and get the perspective of key stakeholders across the C suite, the board, and investors. As an aspiring CEO, you will not get these insights anywhere else. Welcome to Your Path to CEO, the podcast designed to help you get to the CEO seat. My name is Greg O'Shea. I'm the director of AXR Recruitment at Search and your host today. With me is Anthony Boyd. Anthony's the CEO of Sydney Markets Limited. Welcome, Anthony. Thanks, Greg. Nice to be here. Great to have you on board. Anthony, just before we get into the podcast specifically, just tell us a bit about your kind of early pre-career life. Yeah, so uh have lived in Sydney most of my life, grew up on the northern beaches in the forest area, one of four boys. Great childhood, to be honest. I loved every minute of it, felt a very close family. Mum and dad were sort of always around, four boys in the family, lots of lots of sport, lots of activities. And and yeah, that I mean, it's had a huge role in shaping who I am. You know, I think even when I look back at not just the fun we had playing all the different sports we would in the front yard and around the neighborhood, times were different back then, obviously, the the time you spent outside the house. But then even now, thinking about my career and even in senior leadership roles, it doesn't matter to my family. Doesn't make me any different to them. Doesn't sort of have any sort of hierarchy around that. There's no additional respect given for having a certain title or a certain role. It's just that we are who we are and we're still very authentic with each other. And as the four boys growing up, were you the leader of the pack or were you just part of the pack? Yeah, just part. Just part. I guess it depends on what it was, you know, and where the where the sort of competitive nature came out and different things. Yep. But no, I think there's I'm I'm I'm second in the hierarchy. I think Matt, my older brother, was always the natural leader and and and the other two always had their own leadership qualities as well. Yeah. Given this pod's designed to help people look at the journey of getting to CEO. Did you always have in the back of your mind that you wanted to be a CEO or was it something that just kind of fell into? Yeah, I didn't. I mean, obviously I was always interested in in business, you know, I always I always sort of had an interest in how businesses work, how how teams work, those sort of things. So that that was natural, and I've never lost that. But but the yeah, this the single ambition of I want to get to the top of an organization, want to be so never. Never. So what changed? What was the defining moment? Well, to be honest, it probably wasn't a single defining moment. My my rise to CEO was within one organization, really. I'd I had spent effectively 15 years at Fraser's property before I was appointed the CEO. So for me, it was probably a series of opportunities, a series of things that happened over a number of years. It wasn't a single thing. And I think the the the reality of that became not so much desiring that role, but I guess, you know, understanding the business well enough and probably doing a number of roles on the way there that allowed me to probably step up probably a bit more organically rather than rather than being something I I specifically pursued. Yeah, and having come from a finance background, I guess there's always a challenge for finance people trying to move lanes and get into operations. Yep. Yep. And and you know, I think once you kind of decide, okay, I I want to do something different, it's really hard. It's part I I think it's a really big challenge for probably most of the listeners going, okay, how do I go from being kind of a vertical leader, functional, to enterprise leadership? Yeah, definitely. How did you how did you create the opportunity to make that switch? It was probably twofold. Not so much in terms of creating the opportunity, but it was something I was always interested in. Like I I I can be, you know, I've got really strong memories of being in finance roles, but just sort of almost caring more about what that what else the business was doing, as opposed to just what it meant for the PL or the cash flow or the or the sort of the commercial transactions we were doing. So I'd find myself asking a lot of other questions like that. And I think over time, maybe people around me started thinking of me as a bit broader than than finance. So it wasn't wasn't necessarily something that you know I specifically pursued, but there were times where I was able to have, you know, formal conversations with formal and informal conversations with leaders in the business about the potential to do something different, to do something outside of finance. And I and I I really lent into that. And I guess the old analogy, what is it? It's better to be overheard than overlooked. Yeah. When you when you know when you're in a meeting room, you know, I think a few people go, Oh, I don't want to ask a dumb question. I don't want to be that person that's kind of asking irrelevant things. Did you how did how did you kind of escalate the conversation and try to get a you know, so so people looked at you and went, Oh, actually, Anthony knows what he's talking about. He asked some really good questions. Yeah, why don't we give him a bit more? Yeah. I think it was just being genuinely interested in the business. So so even though I was technically in the room, you know, in a finance role, I just felt I couldn't do that role to its fullest without really understanding what the drivers were in the business. So I'd find myself asking questions about customers, about how we were positioning product, how we were designing certain things. This is obviously in a property context, but it was just things I was genuinely interested in. And and and the outcome of all of that was, of course, some finance reports and and those sort of things. But I would also specifically ask the guys in the project teams, oh, can I come out to projects? Can I, you know, see what's happening? Or can I do that? And a bit were they a bit like, well, what do you want to come out to this for? No, it was the opposite. It was the opposite. I think that because it was also, I guess what I was thinking was I was getting the benefit from it all learning all that stuff. What I probably underestimated was that they were learning. Because I was probably giving them my knowledge around finance and why that's important and cash flow management and all those other things that probably came inherently naturally to me. So I thought it was this sort of one-sided thing and that I was really privileged to get out on the site, but I think it was it actually was, you know, mutually beneficial. Yeah, gotcha. And then going from being a finance leader to an enterprise leader, like were there were there sort of certain things that happened over your career life that kind of shaped your leadership style? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I look, I think I go back to even my my sort of early days when I was when I started at Price Waterhouse and Price Waterhouse Cooper, so I was sort of in that chartered world where you you get to see leadership, good and bad. So so you without even thinking at the time, oh this is a real leadership lesson, you just start to see things that you think that's really effective or that's not effective. For me, though, it was also sport, like playing rugby and I hear you're a pretty handy rugby player. Not so I wasn't so good, otherwise I wouldn't have been in this role. But but but no, but I was in I was in teams where leadership wasn't about just who was captain, and and I at the same time I was sort of in businesses where leadership wasn't just for the people that had had a senior role. Like you see leadership everywhere, and that sport thing was really, really influential for me because you just there were people that were just natural leaders that you know, the way they made people feel and the way they supported people, and the way they encouraged people, and the way they held people accountable, just little things like that. It's probably in a lot of ways the the pre-podcast day, you know, like you could you sort of weren't you weren't technically learning about leadership because you're listening to all these other podcasts and whatever, but you were living in this environment where you could see these things happening every day, and and you sort of, I think you just take on those things that you see naturally, you know, good elements of leadership, and and also think, oh, that that sort of doesn't look so good, or they've lost people in that regard, and you probably start to filter those behaviours out of your own, yeah, your own system. And did you find it, did you find those lessons that you learned once you move into more enterprise leadership more challenging? Because on a sports field, obviously you're playing together and there's always teams full of individuals, and what is it? A team of champions is always going to be being a champion team? Yes, that's right. A champion team would always be a team of championship. But uh did you find when you moved into enterprise leadership, like let's look at your first CEO role, like how hard was it stepping into that role? Yeah, it it was well, but it's sort of interesting, obviously, when you when you've moved up through an organization and you you take on additional responsibilities, be that in in the in sort of the hierarchy, I guess, in terms of stepping up, but also in terms of the breadth of things you you're looking after. And it's always challenging because I guess there's there's elements of self-doubt, there's elements of of, you know, am I am I able to do these things? But again, the same principles of the sport, I think, transfer over, which is people are in the team because they're good at what they do. The the beauty then of the organizational principles are as long as everyone's aware of what we're trying to achieve and people are given that autonomy and and the responsibility and you trust them to do what they're doing well, then it's generally worked in the in the same way. And I feel like maybe I've been very fortunate that I've worked with really good people that have adapted to that. But I think those principles of leadership are pretty consistent. Yeah, gotcha. So having moved to Sydney Markets, which for people who don't know Sydney Markets, actually you're probably better to tell people about Sydney Markets than I am. Yeah, so Sydney Markets is is one of the largest fresh produce distribution markets in the southern hemisphere. It's it's it's a wholesale market predominantly, fruit, vegetables, and flowers. But there are retail elements, there's obviously warehousing elements, so it's a it's a huge distribution center, but it's also a huge marketplace and has actually been in operations to some degree in Sydney. It's probably one of the first business enterprises in Sydney. They say that the the foundations of it are way back almost when the first fleet came off and built wharves in Sydney Harbour, and it's evolved over time. But a huge organization, well in excess of you know, three or four billion dollars of produce every year going through through through the market. So having joined a new business where you you don't have the I guess the insights, the the joy of knowing actually capability, performance, history. How have you because that's that's obviously a lot different transition from going from phrases where you were 15 years, knew everything. Definitely. Was it was it was it a big shift in how you had to approach it and what you what you're finding? Definitely. The I think the the comfort I had stepping up into the role in phrases was that I knew not only knew the business, but I knew the people. Yeah. And and so you kind of had trust. And the the uh the other saying is what is trust is good, checking's better. Yeah, that's it. But you kind of like I trust these people, they do a good job. Absolutely. And and I think that idea of of even though you you're potentially in a hierarchy sense stepping up out of a peer group into a leadership role, and suddenly your peers become your direct reports when you when you take on that role, it didn't feel like that to me at Frasers. Sure, I was responsible as the CEO, but those relationships didn't change because then you'd invested so much time into them previously. You're sorry, I I should go on a little divergence here, but those relationships didn't change for you. But did you felt people treated you a little bit differently, being CEO? I'd I'd love to think no. I think look, I think there is always a sense of, okay, now, you know, I've got to be really careful about everything I say around people. But I I would hope that I didn't change too much for those relationships. So it didn't feel to me like others felt any different. But but going back to your first question around the Sydney markets entry, that that is very different because you don't know anyone. And coming into an organization as the CEO, it it is very different because there is that sense of, I guess, anticipation and people, I guess, wanting to not only know what you're thinking about in terms of the business, but who you are as a person. How do you treat people? How, you know, how do you expect culture to to look? You know, are you are you interested in people across the business or are you much more transactional, all of those, those things. And to be honest, I'm only six months in to that role, and I think that's that's still evolving because it just does take a little bit of time for people to become familiar with with those behaviours. Is it is it easier the second time? Oh, I I it probably is, only from a point of view of the confidence of being able to do a role. You know, there's no doubt when you when you're first given a role like CEO of an organization, there is still that element of self-doubt to some degree. You know, I think it I think it'd be it'd be crazy to think that everyone, you know, that someone just steps in and says, well, I've been ordained for this, and you know, of course. So there's that element of of self-doubt. And I guess over time you you get that confidence that you can just do the role the way you want to see it, the way, you know, and be yourself, be very authentic with it. And that those lessons that I learned then at Fraser's, I've I've translated. So it probably is a little bit easier. So Fraser's you kind of had a degree of imposter syndrome. Oh, definitely. Definitely. And I look, that probably happens a couple of times. It's not just stepping up into the CEO role. I think I started in quite a junior finance role at Fraser's, and and you know, luckily had some had some great sponsors, some great, you know, connections in the business that that I was able to have, you know, really progressive conversations about career development, but that doesn't guarantee anything. And and having the ability to to take a step up and try something new or whatever, of course you've got a bit of imposter syndrome. Generally because you're following someone you respect, or you think, oh, they're so smart, or they've got more experience, or they know more than me, etc. But I think having done that a few times through the organization, you do get a level of confidence that, all right, well, I haven't necessarily picked myself to do this role. Someone else has seen something in me to do that role, and and I've just got to do the best I can and and be myself. And and when we caught up previously having conversations, Anthony, you mentioned one of the tips you got when you moved into the CEO role at Fraser's was what's your exit going to look like. Yeah. And you you kind of thought at the time, what the but but yeah, talk talk through that. Yeah. So it will it goes back actually, because I sort of think, you know, there are some there are some moments, I guess, even though I haven't strategically spent my career with a really clear career plan. I've never actually had a career plan. I know people use them and I've actually helped a lot of people build them, and I think they can be really, really beneficial for people. It just hasn't been my experience. Instead, I've kind of been able to adapt to whatever's been in front of me and do that. But there have been some times where I've had conversations with leaders asking about that. And yeah, one of those times was was with Bob Johnston and Rod Farring, who were who was the CEO and the head of the you know an EGM at the time. And I actually had a the question for them, which is do you think I'm capable of sort of stepping out of finance and being something more broad uh in terms of general management, etc.? Which they were very supportive of. I was prepared for the opposite answer, to be honest, because it was a bit of a leap. But then I have subsequently followed Rod into two roles. The first one was the head of the residential business at Fraser's and then the CEO role. And both times he said to me, you need to think about how you're going to leave this role. And at first I thought, A, I've only just got here, B, it's sort of at a level I can't, well, what would happen after that? But it's it was one of the best pieces of advice I've received because it just changes your mindset a little bit about A, making sure that that you're moving, you know, making sure you're getting things done and not just taking your time because you think, okay, now I've reached a certain level, I can just really relax here. But the other thing is, is how I think you naturally treat people around you then, rather than being protective of that position and trying to, I guess, lock yourself in, it it becomes the opposite. You start to think straight away who could who could succeed me in this role? How do I help other people step up? How am I giving people experience and and giving people opportunities to to do some of those things? And and that's definitely been my experience. With uh with the succession planning piece, do you do you often share your experience and advice for people below you, or do you prefer someone to kind of be more upfront and come to you and approach you about it? It's probably both. It's probably both. I think really good organizations, and that was one thing that I'll always be thankful around, Fraser's property in particular, were really proactive and progressive in thinking about succession planning. So I think if the leadership group and the board are always thinking about those things, naturally the conversations become a bit more organic through the organization. So I think it's a bit of both. I I just I'm a big believer in thinking that you know, nothing's preordained, but if you're aware of what's happening around you and aware of the opportunities that that may even be presented, even if someone hasn't come to you and said, there's this role, are you interested in this role? It could just be a slight deviation from your role. It might just be someone asking to join a project, it might be someone just you know in a meeting asking about some other idea they're having. If you if you're open-minded enough and you're sort of aware of what's happening around you, then it's it's amazing how many kind of opportunities present themselves without actually having to be formal roles in in in in all charts. Yeah, because there's uh obviously uh a few people subscribe from the fact that you know the the key to good career management is luck or right place, right time, right taking a risk. What are your thoughts on that? There's elements of luck, of course. And and maybe maybe it's more good timing than good luck. I think I think luck sort of has a has a different connotation almost like you know, that that the credibility. Yeah. I think you still always have credibility. I think luck probably comes into it to some degree around how organizations form, how how you know structures may change within an organization or how people might move on in in different roles. So I think I look, I know I've absolutely been fortunate in in a number of circumstances where things have have opened up in front of me or opportunities have been created. The the key is having the right mindset, I think, to having a having having a taking a risk or or or thinking about what it is you think you can really add value to and then being able to back that up with actions. Yeah. Is it a fine line? Because you you mentioned you caught up with the CEO and your then line boss, yep. And having a discussion about you moving out of finance into operations. Is it a is it a a one-off conversation? Because you know, I do hear from clients a lot or people that I deal with, you know, oh people under me that they kind of want the next step all the time and it's badgering. What's your what's your view on kind of how much you need to push your own agenda in an organization to get the next opportunity? And when do you kind of go, hey, maybe I'm not going to get the opportunity in this organization, perhaps I need to look elsewhere? That's a really good question. I I think the the bottom line is I don't think it's a frequency thing. People are smart enough to know, yeah, you but you have to be prepared to have the conversation. I think once it's out there, the the follow-up is always about then what can I do? You know, rather than rather than putting it on other people, you know, it's often about yourself. So so I think the mistake a lot of people make is saying, Oh, I'd love to move into a general management role. And then all they're doing is going badgering their boss and saying, can you make that happen for me? That that I don't think that's right. It's it's probably quite rare that some other person can do that. You've got to take a bit of that responsibility yourself. So I think there's a there's definitely a consistency to it, and you need to have some conviction in doing it, but it's not I've what I've found is it's not always about the role itself existing and then you being selected for it. It's actually how things evolve a little bit more organically and and being able to show that you're capable of of thinking a certain way, thinking like your boss might think, thinking how your boss's boss might think, providing a a broader context, not just doing you know what you're asked to do, but thinking more broadly. I think that combined with open conversations about future opportunities and succession, yeah. I think I think it's on it's on it's on the person to really drive that. And it's also, as you touched on, you know, one of your first line roles was in Victoria. Yeah. There's a degree of where you've got to be flexible because the ideal role, next role, mightn't come up in your your current state. It could involve relocation geographically within the country or or overseas. Definitely. I guess there's a a high degree of you've got to go, well, okay, if I want to make the move, there's got to be something I'm gonna have to sacrifice. Definitely. And that was that was my experience. So once I'd had the conversation about moving out of finance and taking on a general management role, you don't just step out of finance into a CEO role. It was more about the the process progression. And my experience was that the role that was in Sydney where I was at the time wasn't available. And and but but potentially the role in Victoria was becoming available. So would have felt to me at the time a bit selfish, I guess, to say, well, not considering that, like you need to make it happen for me in Sydney because that's convenient for me. The reality was it was it was available in Melbourne at the time. And so that that requires a whole bunch of things to fall into place. I'm not underestimating how how significant that is, but yeah, conversation with Ed, my wife, and the kids at the time were year four and year two, and it's a little bit undefined as well, right? As it was, I spent Three or four years in Melbourne, but we didn't know that at the time. You don't you don't really know how that's going to evolve in front of you. So yeah, there was that sense of taking a risk, but doing it in a way that, you know, this is what I was asking to sort of get the opportunity to do, then it's presented to you. The idea of just throwing yourself into that and and and yeah, yeah, sure, it's a sacrifice to some degree that you might relocate, but it provided so many other opportunities for us as well, and became a huge part of our lives and and and that sort of thing. But it yeah, I think it's it's it's not just saying that you're you're interested in doing those sorts of things, you do have to have the conviction to follow through. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. Be careful what you wish for too sometimes. Yeah. Tell me, so you you mentioned previously about culture. Is culture king? And the second part to this question is you know, you you you went into the CEO role of Fraser's, what having been there for what were you, 13 years maybe before? 15 years before the CEO. And then obviously going to even Sydney Markets is an example, which is kind of one of the oldest established businesses in Australia. 15 years of Fraser's set culture, but you want to potentially bring your own version of that to the table. And similarly Sydney Markets, uh, what's what's your view on it? Look, going back to that first question you had, uh, culture is definitely king. I just I think there's there's a lot of people in their careers that that probably feel like they might be in the wrong place at the wrong time and and they probably can't put a beat on why that is. I think a lot of that might come down to the alignment of a business's culture and and your own personal value system. Where that aligns, it's awesome and and people feel engaged and energized and all of those sorts of things. When it's not, I think it grinds at people. So so when you talk about culture being king, I think it absolutely is. And that doesn't mean that there's there's one culture fits all. I think what an organization needs to do is just be really clear about its culture and and be consistent in that, and then people can choose whether they want to be part of that or not. From from my perspective as well, I guess going to your second part of the question, which is around the CEO part, there's no doubt that organizations take on the personality of a CEO somewhat. It doesn't affect everything that happens, but there is that element of that. So I think everyone owns culture, and everyone will have an influence on culture, good or bad, but but the CEO does have an elevated role in that, as the leadership team does. And I think that's just as simple, though, as what are the behaviors? Like what are the what are the examples of behaviors that people see? This is day in, day out, not just at the annual results presentation or a you know, an AGM or a or a stand-up presentation to staff. This is everyday stuff. And that sets a tone around how we treat people and how we get things done. And and being able to see that and have that influence, then I think it becomes more natural that people adopt those those behaviors as well. Did you think you have like I I know a company has its identity and culture for the bit for the organization? But do you find there's different cultures as you go up and down the kind of organizational structure? That's that point I was making before about everyone having an influence on culture. And that that's it, this is why culture's hard in organizations, because you can always have values written on a wall and you can always have principles around your belief and who you are as an organization. But the reality is it's everyone's behaviors, it's it's accumulation of everyone's behavior. So what I've learnt is every individual's experience of culture is very different because whilst you may have have principles around that, and there might be you know hundreds or thousands of people in the organization, that person's experience of culture might actually only be five, six, ten people. So so yeah, it can be very different depending on where that is. I think for me, I go go back a step and then think leadership predominantly is about you know how you make people feel, how they how they are supported in an organization, how you help them do their jobs better. So if you can if you can exhibit those sorts of behaviours as a CEO and you expect your leadership team to be exhibiting those behaviours, then everybody should be adapting that because that's just how naturally then how the things actually get done and how people get recognized, then it probably starts to weed out those other people who aren't necessarily aligned with those behaviors. I think that's sort of probably how it how it works over. Bit of self-selection. A bit of self-selection. You have to let it breathe, you have to let it have a time. You gotta let people decide that for themselves. But I think that's in my experience, that's generally what's happening. That's what happens. Gotcha. Going from functional to enterprise, did you um like obviously I'm I'm assuming you just didn't go in from day one and you nailed everything. I'm assuming there was a few mistakes, a bit of learning, but give us your top three. Heaps, heaps. I um I still remember like think thinking of like if I look backwards at my career, I stepped up into different finance roles. Once I stepped across into the GM role in Victoria, not long after I became the executive general manager, moved across to CFO, then up to CEO. I look back at all of those leaps, and by far the biggest leap was the first one out of finance into that role in Victoria, the GM. Is that was that where you suffered the most imposter syndrome? Oh, for sure. And and it's I know I'm I know it's a long way of getting around to it, but that's how answering that other question around the leap and just that idea of God, like what am I doing here? Like, I don't have the technical expertise. There's lots of things because I've gone from you know a familiar territory of of cash flow management and and financial statements and just doing things that you were really familiar with to suddenly dealing with sales and marketing challenges, project challenges, you're meeting mayors about, you know, different it was such a such a shock for me. But again, it was a great lesson in in leadership because you realize soon after that going from a functional leadership to more general leadership, you're never going to be an expert in all the things that you that you're then responsible for. So I had a finance background, I felt quite comfortable there, but I had to rely on the sales and marketing leaders to help me in that space, had to rely on the property development team to do that bit, had to rely on the custom of people. So you you soon realize that you know I'm never gonna be an expert in construction, but as long as I've got a good relationship with the person who's running construction and I can I can relate to those people and ask them the right questions and feel like they're you know empowered and and and trusted to do what they're doing, that's that's the bit. But I think that's the that's the answer to the imposter syndrome bit, is that you almost need to accept that you're not gonna be the expert. Don't even need to try to be the expert, let let the experts do what they do. And did you did you consciously have to think about getting out of your comfort space, which is finance? Did you have to sit there and go, you know what? I I know the finance stuff, I've really got to focus. So that's gets 10% of my time and 90% to the rest. Definitely, definitely. But that the irony is it it sort of sounds like that was sort of the chore. For me, it was like so freeing to just be out in a space where I was going, I can ask all these questions, I can learn all about this stuff, even even though in and in fact, at one stage I've got an uncle who's very handy in trades, and I'm not that handy. And and he actually said to me one time, he's like, mate, I just do not understand how you can be the the head of one of the largest residential businesses in Australia, and you don't even know what end of a hammer to hold. But left-handed hammer. Exactly. But but it was it was so instructive to me because it was it was so interesting. And and I think that's that's been my story was that I was so interested in the business and so interested in why some products were selling well and why customers were asking us about that and how we could think about you know product development in a different way. It was just so interesting to me that then being able to do it in your job as well as, you know, in addition to just doing your other job was was awesome. So so I'm getting the sense you kind of a piece of your advice, correct me if I'm wrong, is if you're interested in the organization you're working in, build good relationships. I guess the interest in yourself will will will look after itself. Yeah, totally. Because people go, We want this guy at the table, girl, at the table, because they're passionate, they provide good good information to us and they help us grow the business. That's right. And and and so that's that's sort of a tailwind then in a in a business context, but then from a from a cultural and an engagement and like your self-fulfillment context, it's tailwind as well. So it's sort of that they reinforce each other. Yeah, it's yeah, it's absolutely my my my my lived experience. Moving into CEO, people say it's lonely at the top, is it? Can be. Yeah, it can be. It's interesting. The last six months have been really instructive coming into a new organization and and and starting as the CEO, then then what you're doing is being that natural bridge between the board and the shareholders and then and the executive team and then the team underneath that. So so you are at a little bit of a pinch point. And I think rather than it being, you know, lonely from the point of view of I you you don't speak to people, that that's not that. It's just more, you know, are you are you kind of caught in that in that pincer, I guess, between those two. But like it wasn't like that for me at phrases as much just because I knew everyone so well and are stepping up into that. But it's still it doesn't have to feel like that either. I think depending on on how you are, what your sort of leadership style is, I know my leadership style's very high engagement and and low ego. So naturally, if that's the space you're in, I'm gonna be seeking opinions. Like I want people to give me what, you know, give me their insights, let me understand what they're thinking. It's it's really powerful for me. So it actually helps me do my job. So I think if you're if you're that way, it probably doesn't feel as lonely because I'd I very rarely sit in an office by myself thinking, how am I gonna solve this problem? It's it's more about just talking to people and getting getting the right people in the room. Do you think it's easier to become you for your first CEO role in in your organization you're familiar with or a new business, where people kind of go, Well, he's a CEO, so we just respect that. Whereas in the last organization, you're like, well, we kind of know him. That's a good question, actually. I don't know. I don't know. I think I think there's a natural level of respect that comes with the position anyway. So I think rather than them just disrespecting what you know what you've got to offer, even if they do know you and they know that's not your core expertise, I think there's that level of respect. At least that was my experience. But I think there is a natural advantage to someone just saying, well, I've only known this guy as the CEO in my example, and therefore, you know, there's a certain assumption, okay, great, I can, I can, I can trust judgment or I can do those sorts of things. But it's a good question. I haven't really even thought of that. Yeah. Well, well, hopefully I've got one more. Let's think about the sacrifices for a CEO. Yeah, big role, presumably pays well. Um, like what have you, what what like people who are stepping into that role, you've got to sacrifice something. Like, I you see elite athletes and everyone sees them win the gold medal, but they forget about all the hard work that's gone into it. Like, what's your view? Yeah, look, definitely. I think like anything in life, it's it's a series of trade-offs. You know, I know working working in residential property in particular in for 20 years, you realise, you know, buying a house is a series of trade-offs. Life's a bit like that. And I think so long as you're conscious of those trade-offs that you're willing to make, and the ones you aren't willing to make, then that probably predefines, you know, what where you can go. For me, I like I'm I'm super aware of how fortunate I was to have the family support I had. So I think back to the early days when I was not CEO, but but kind of you know, working really hard and being exposed to some of those leadership opportunities. There's no way I could have done that. And this is just my experience, but there's no way I could have done that without Eb totally being in charge at home and and and me not having to stress about that stuff, because it meant I could fully lock in and kind of devote myself to it. Did that mean I I missed dinner a few nights with the kids? Yeah. You know, did it mean that I was interstate a little while or overseas doing some travel? Yeah, it did. And and you know, do I look back and regret any of that? Like, sure if you if you if you think of it, you know, purely philosophically, but actually on balance, it was conscious that we'd made those decisions. And so I think that's that's exactly what you have to be prepared to trade off. I think the the risk is someone assuming that then you can you can maybe have everything. So I want to be able to do everything at home, have full flexibility, work from home four days a week, but I still want to be the CEO. They're gonna be really hard to get all of those things because the the currency that you're building by the time you spend on relationships and the time you spend asking questions and those sort of things, I think they're things that I maybe took for granted at the time, but realize they were all the bedrock of of being able to move forward. And is it like and you but you talk about evolving, you know, lifestyles, flexibility, and and you know, I think you and I both kind of grew up in an era where you just you know worked harder. Uh you stayed back. Like you I'm assuming you've had to adapt your leadership style though to accommodate for that across organizations. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And and one of the first things to probably talk about with that is that there are some things also in terms of trade-offs that I that I wasn't prepared to make. So, so, and this was some of my earliest sort of leadership lessons, I guess, where I was able to look up to people who were really devoted to looking after themselves as leaders. So I'm talking about, you know, personal fitness, fitness, yeah, fitness, well-being, sleep, diet, all those sort of things. They've always been non-negotiables for me. So that's that's one part of it. But then adapting your style, absolutely. I think the leaders that we were exposed to earlier in our careers were a little bit more all-knowing, kind of all, you know, there wasn't that sense of vulnerability or or or sort of at least in generally, you know. What what I think's really evolved now is that sense of you're dealing with a different workforce, you're dealing with much more, I guess, connected sort of sensibilities around vulnerability and and not knowing all the answers and those sort of things. But I think it's then it's it's still that mix. It's it's having the conviction and having that that sort of self-belief together with that idea of nurturing people and saying, well, if I don't have the answers, I'm happy to admit that uh and and and making sure people are coming along for the journey and having being able to help in that regard. But yeah, it's it's definitely evolved over the last 30 years. Yeah, gotcha. For people wanting to make the move into CEO, what what three pieces of advice would you have for them? The first bit of advice would always be around authenticity. Like I think a CEO job, but any job is hard enough to do without having to then think about how am I preparing and how am I going to sort of turn up today. Like, so there's a there's an authenticity piece to start. That'd that'd be the first bit, just be yourself. The second one would be, you know, don't worry about the things you can't control. You know, you and I often talk about this when we're when you're thinking about the world and all the things that could potentially have an influence on your day. God, if you start to worry about all those things, all you do is sit up all night and nothing would change. So I'm a big believer in going, there's things you have to identify that you don't have control over, so don't worry about it. But on the flip side of that, which is probably the third bit of advice, is on those things you can control, then then really hone in on that. And I and I believe there's there's two things you can always control. My kids have heard me say this a thousand times, but the two things you can always control are your attitude and your effort. And I think if you if you focus on those two things, it doesn't cut doesn't bring technical skills into it, doesn't bring titles into it, doesn't bring all charts it, doesn't bring any of that stuff into it. They're the two things that I think are the most attractive to for for people to be alongside. If you've got a positive attitude and you work hard and that doesn't mean you can't have fun. I'm a big believer in in having fun, but I just think if you have that positive outlook and you and you bring that attitude, it's it's not only better for yourself, but it actually becomes infectious. Yeah, gotcha. You you said you haven't aspired to being a CEO, but you've got there. What what's next? Because I, you know, a lot of people kind of go, I want to get CEO. They've done it, tick the box. They're either fulfilled or they're like, okay. What's next? Where's where's Anthony Boyd in five to ten years' time? Yeah, well, at the moment, I like I am I I've I'm so happy I've joined Sydney Markets. It's such an amazing opportunity we've got ahead of us. It's it's an organization that's got such an esteemed history, but such an amazing future, and and I'm really energized thinking about helping shape that. So, so in the short term, that's that's you know, got a number of years ahead of me doing that. And and that's going to be everything. It's it's a it's a little bit of you know, uh operational transformation. There's a bit of cultural transformation, and we've got to think more broadly in our strategic context. I'm loving that. So, so does that evolve into future executive roles or does it evolve into future you know governance leadership roles? I'm pretty open-minded. I also, you know, I like the idea of of having a having a quieter lifestyle at some stage in the future as well. So yeah, I'm I'm not probably similar to the rest of my career, I haven't got this predefined endpoint. I I'm not overly strategic about what's in front of me. I've just taken the same view of just enjoying what I'm doing and working as hard as I can in in what I'm doing and having fun at the same time and being around good people, and that's always worked well for me so far. So that's the plan going forward. Yeah, it's the formula. If you actually I'll ask you one more, if you had an opportunity to give yourself 20 years ago a piece of advice today, go back in time, what would it be? Just back yourself. Back yourself. Back yourself. Someone's got to do these sort of roles. I guess that's the other thing. Like that that's probably my biggest lesson. Someone's got to do them. You don't pick yourself, other people have seen something in you that have given you that opportunity. So just back yourself. And but I probably wouldn't change too much either. So it'd just be keeping up. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Anthony, thank you for being part of the uh Path to CEO and uh look forward to seeing what happens with City Markets. I really enjoyed it. Thanks a lot for having me. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed today's podcast from Exile Recruitment and Search. Thanks for being a part of our executive community. Keep listening for more insights and advice to help you on your path to CEO.